tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post4103547309919211055..comments2024-01-31T07:38:40.980-06:00Comments on The Whore of All the Earth: Video of my talk! Finally!Leahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08129509609170344883noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-50742632527349552732011-04-16T08:38:11.533-05:002011-04-16T08:38:11.533-05:00Catherine, thanks so much for watching!
Yeah, one...Catherine, thanks so much for watching!<br /><br />Yeah, one of the death knells in my testimony was the whole claim<br />about how priesthood leaders speak for the Lord, speak for the Lord,<br />speak for the Lord UNTIL they make a mistake. And then we're supposed<br />to forgive them because they're just human. How the hell are supposed<br />to know the difference?! And they say pray about it and let the Spirit<br />guide you, but then if the Spirit tells you something that conflicts<br />with Church authorities, you've been deceived. AAAAUUUGGHHH!Leahhttp://whoreofalltheearth.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-42250267250848267892011-04-16T06:59:56.790-05:002011-04-16T06:59:56.790-05:00Wow... excellent talk! (Glad you didn't finish...Wow... excellent talk! (Glad you didn't finish it in the name of JC Amen... LOL!) I thought you had a wonderful balance between clearly and thoughtfully presenting your search and research, but still allowed yourself to show that your life experiences had deeply touched your heart. Telling the "things of one's heart" can be a challenge because when the topic is so precious to us we can sometimes become too emtional, but I thought you were wonderful.<br /><br />How ironic the gentleman at the end... he spoke exactly as I would expect a true bluer to speak. An apostle speaks for the Lord, EXCEPT when he says something wrong. Well duh! I'm glad he spoke up and his ignorant (and I meant that in the true definition of the word) remarks were a real live example of the member mindset. Rather a fitting way to show the contrast of how far you have come.<br /><br />Thank you for sharing this.Catherine P.http://profiles.google.com/catherinepillingernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-41218257900440327512011-04-13T13:32:28.277-05:002011-04-13T13:32:28.277-05:00The quote in the last video by the man in the fron...The quote in the last video by the man in the front row (the Bishop I assume) that, "The Church is based off the spirit..." well, so is the Muslims, the Christians, and the Hindus... and yet according the the Journal of Discourses, as the quote by Joseph Smith you cited is from (p.2, 1867 version), these other varieties of faith are all false. Really? This is established how? Because Brigham Young makes up a quote years after Joseph Smith is dead, as if this was trustworthy, we're going to take it on second hand because it came from Young? That's the *opposite of reliable. <br><br>I think this fellow needs to rethink things... or better yet, think before speaking... because you can't be expected to be taken seriously, as this Bishop does, when he states things along the lines of "We can't believe what any apostle says, but we know who to believe, because we have the spirit." Good now just prove the spirit is real! Easy as pie, right? <br><br>That's a mighty slippery slope to mount a defense on, and I feel like he slipped right off the edge there by failing to address your issues and giving you the run around. I especially liked his back peddling technique, since it was predictably pathetic, "There's more to it. There's just more to it." Well, that explains EVERYTHING! Wow, what a load off.<br><br>But as an outsider who has read the Book of Mormon, the Book of Pearl, and the Journal of Discourses, I might even agree that there is more to it, but with the added stipulation, none of it is worth reading--unless, of course, you really like extremely poorly written fiction.<br><br>Good job with the lecture!Tristan D. Vickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05348780254008374268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-12384243791164276742011-04-13T13:32:27.855-05:002011-04-13T13:32:27.855-05:00All I was saying is that the essence of mormonism ...All I was saying is that the essence of mormonism as I know it is to ask God for yourself. Yes, every single person is different and should have different beliefs. Didn't the Mormon prophet Nephi hack someone's head off? Doesn't that normally send a guy to outer-darkness in the Mormon religion? The Mormon religion is full of similar stories. Remember, the culture and the religion are two very separate things. The question I have for you is: can't men (including prophets) have personal opinions in the Mormon church?Nathaniel Drewhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13535208584815272932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-80156679724299422022011-04-13T13:32:26.836-05:002011-04-13T13:32:26.836-05:00XR4-ITYou actually proved my point quite well when...XR4-IT<br>You actually proved my point quite well when you said "...while many would think that “Thou shall not kill” is pretty straight forward; the scriptures are full of places where God has made exceptions to this rule, places where the commandment from God is to kill some one or some group of people" <br>Thanks. Couldn't have said it better myself.Nathaniel Drewhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13535208584815272932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-16935554628730539002010-09-03T22:29:42.388-05:002010-09-03T22:29:42.388-05:00Thanks, Carla.
Yeah, the LDS man at the end was o...Thanks, Carla.<br /><br />Yeah, the LDS man at the end was obnoxious and also sent me some rather patronizing emails. Whatever.Leahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08129509609170344883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-50686951835151183922010-09-03T01:31:46.361-05:002010-09-03T01:31:46.361-05:00LOVE your talk.
But seriously, how can the guy at...LOVE your talk.<br /><br />But seriously, how can the guy at the end not see that he utterly contradicted himself? He acts like women are not supposed to be submissive, and then he oozes his "authority to speak" all over everybody, and <i>ever so graciously</i> offers to answer any questions any weak-minded and un-spirit-led individuals might have about the church. His arrogance and patronizing attitude just poisoned what was otherwise an awesome talk.Carla Schmidt Hollowayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12947846629735463824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-73901478559781425922010-03-25T11:24:14.956-05:002010-03-25T11:24:14.956-05:00The point is, Nathaniel, that the prophets weren’t...The point is, Nathaniel, that the prophets weren’t disregarding commandments but explicitly fallowing God’s commandments. You can’t tell me that Nephi was disregarding God’s commandments when he killed Laban, because he had an explicit command to do so.<br /><br />If you want to see other explicit commandments for God’s people to kill see Deuteronomy 13, along with several other commandments in the Old Testament. <br /><br />In law a legal exception is not considered disregarding the law, but rather a special circumstance where the law allows for different rules.<br /><br />So again you haven’t provided us with an example an example of a prophet disregarding God’s commandments, only and example of a prophet following a special commandment.<br /><br />When you say that prophets disobey God’s commandments, you must mean that they have a disregard for God’s will, because disobeying God’s commandments by definition is disregarding his will, and doing things contrary to God’s will.XR4-IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11833497059713999081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-62264955800941246622010-03-09T15:06:46.591-06:002010-03-09T15:06:46.591-06:00XR4-IT
You actually proved my point quite well whe...XR4-IT<br />You actually proved my point quite well when you said "...while many would think that “Thou shall not kill” is pretty straight forward; the scriptures are full of places where God has made exceptions to this rule, places where the commandment from God is to kill some one or some group of people" <br />Thanks. Couldn't have said it better myself.Nathaniel Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13535208584815272932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-91411339126067297912010-02-27T04:33:36.305-06:002010-02-27T04:33:36.305-06:00Superb -- that guys questions at the end cemented ...Superb -- that guys questions at the end cemented your case !Sabio Lantzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12963476276106907984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-79553948237618308302010-02-19T13:04:30.960-06:002010-02-19T13:04:30.960-06:00Thanks for your story Leah, it was very moving and...Thanks for your story Leah, it was very moving and I'm glad you can breathe freely now.Josiahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08672800976880354454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-85066745941133130152010-02-17T12:16:45.948-06:002010-02-17T12:16:45.948-06:00Out of curiosity I came back to this thread to see...Out of curiosity I came back to this thread to see if anything else had been posted, and I saw Nathaniel’s post about how Nephi, a Book of Mormon Prophet, cut off the head of a man named Laban.<br /><br />For readers who are not familiar with the LDS faith, the way Nathaniel characterized this story as Nephi disregarding a commandment is blatantly wrong. In the story Nephi does indeed cut off the head of Laban, but only because he received a direct command from God to do so. While Nathaniel wants to clime that this is an example of Nephi disregarding the commandment not to kill the narrative makes it clear that this is not the case. In fact Nephi is hesitant to kill Laban until God reiterates the command to do so.<br /><br />The text for this story can be found: <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/4" rel="nofollow">hear</a><br /><br />Also while many would think that “Thou shall not kill” is pretty straight forward; the scriptures are full of places where God has made exceptions to this rule, places where the commandment from God is to kill some one or some group of peopleXR4-IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11833497059713999081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-15825691848531671152010-02-16T15:54:51.298-06:002010-02-16T15:54:51.298-06:00I found the link to your blog courtesy of the brod...I found the link to your blog courtesy of the brodie awards site. Thank you so much for posting this - I can empathize with the depression felt in the mormon church simply because I was a human and flawed. I was finally able to isolate myself from the mormon church by moving away for several months, went off anti-depressants and none of my previous symptoms returned. I've sometimes looked back on the times I was depressed, wondering if I was just young and stressed and if it could be chalked up to that. Thank you for sharing everything - I greatly appreciate it.<br /><br />Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-32160774733861265282010-02-16T09:44:41.742-06:002010-02-16T09:44:41.742-06:00"Traditional arab dress includes many symbols..."Traditional arab dress includes many symbols that are sacred to them that are actually amazingly close to sacred clothing and symbols in the LDS faith (specifically in the temple). The Aztecs and other ancient civilizations including the Greeks and Romans have Gods and stories of Gods that are eerily close to the stories and attributes I used to think were peculiar to the Mormons."<br /><br /><br />And the reason why it is so is called "cultural appropriation". Seriously.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-62291201027772048882010-02-15T15:38:29.680-06:002010-02-15T15:38:29.680-06:00"mikasaur2000 - by definition that is not ath..."mikasaur2000 - by definition that is not atheism. That is agnosticism."<br /><br />Actually, his/her definition is entirely correct. 'Atheism' means 'lacking belief in god(s)'<br /><br />'Agnostic atheist' is, I think, a silly term. Sure, I'm not 100,00% sure of my atheism (or anything, I guess). But it's really close. Calling myself an agnostic or an 'agnostic atheist' would just be silly. 'Atheist' is fine. I think I can go for 'militant atheist' too, or perhaps even (god forbid) 'strident atheist'.<br /><br />I can see the term 'gnostic atheist' being fitting for some kinds of people, but honestly, I've never met any such person. (And most people I know are atheists)Erikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17986417269238230984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-8134241185933366692010-02-12T10:02:24.989-06:002010-02-12T10:02:24.989-06:00I would really like to have a logical discussion h...I would really like to have a logical discussion here, but people, you need to read my whole argument to understand what my points are. I know it's painful to read posts from a Mormon who has considered atheism and returned, but for logic's sake, please try.Nathaniel Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13535208584815272932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-6669908879014042112010-02-12T09:57:59.676-06:002010-02-12T09:57:59.676-06:00Remember that I also suggested that theists were t...Remember that I also suggested that theists were theists because they feel better about themselves.Nathaniel Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13535208584815272932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-37099890559518671832010-02-12T09:54:32.003-06:002010-02-12T09:54:32.003-06:00All I was saying is that the essence of mormonism ...All I was saying is that the essence of mormonism as I know it is to ask God for yourself. Yes, every single person is different and should have different beliefs. Didn't the Mormon prophet Nephi hack someone's head off? Doesn't that normally send a guy to outer-darkness in the Mormon religion? The Mormon religion is full of similar stories. Remember, the culture and the religion are two very separate things. The question I have for you is: can't men (including prophets) have personal opinions in the Mormon church?Nathaniel Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13535208584815272932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-30403197070239026322010-02-12T09:42:47.187-06:002010-02-12T09:42:47.187-06:00Ray, thanks for the definitions. That's how I ...Ray, thanks for the definitions. That's how I understand them as well.Nathaniel Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13535208584815272932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-36701231135675361402010-02-10T11:14:53.142-06:002010-02-10T11:14:53.142-06:00Yes, Nathaniel, your language was mostly gray, whi...Yes, Nathaniel, your language was mostly gray, which is why I was trying to get some clarification. You said the "true religion" isn't an all-or-nothing deal. What am I to understand by that? Does that mean that you can pick which parts of the doctrine you like and ignore the rest? Does that mean you can pick out times when you think the prophet is just "being human" and ignore the stuff he says at those times? Or perhaps it means you should believe every last bit of doctrine and every single word out of the prophets' mouths but it's okay to just do a half-assed job at following it? Please clarify. What do you mean exactly when you say it's not all-or-nothing? And again, what does "accepting your divine potential" mean, exactly?<br /><br />And no, I didn't say I don't feel better because of atheism. In fact I said "overall I'm definitely happier as an atheist." By pointing out some exceptions to my happiness, I was trying to illustrate is that atheism isn't all peaches and cream. It isn't "merely a way for people to feel better about themselves," as you suggested. Do you imagine that deep down I still secretly believe in God and Mormonism and I'm just clinging desperately to the hope that God doesn't exist so I can escape judgement for all the naughty, naughty sins I love so much? Is that what you mean when you suggest that atheists are only atheists to feel better about themselves?<br /><br />(P.S. I'm not angry, just mildly irritated and slightly sarcastic. And, yes, I'm Leah's brother.)Mike Elliotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13182360977278780548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-88133967542591463592010-02-10T09:24:25.153-06:002010-02-10T09:24:25.153-06:00You don't seem to understand the whole differe...You don't seem to understand the whole difference between agnostic/gnostic and atheist/theist. Agnostic/gnostic describes whether or not you believe we can know the answer to something. Atheist/theist describes whether you believe in god(s) or not.<br /><br />Let me spell it out for you simply:<br /><br />- Agnostic atheist: Doesn't believe in any gods, doesn't think we can know the answer to that question. (This would be most other atheists)<br /><br />- Gnostic atheist: Doesn't believe in any gods, and believes that we know that there are no gods. (Much more rare)<br /> <br />- Agnostic theist: Believes in a god/gods, but admits we don't know for certain (Relatively rare)<br /> <br />- Gnostic theist: Absolutely believes in a god/gods, and that we can know the answer. (Very common in the religious)Ray Haugehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00048338815133918853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-48283731114698306582010-02-10T04:34:07.518-06:002010-02-10T04:34:07.518-06:00Thank you for your story, and I wish you all the b...Thank you for your story, and I wish you all the best for your life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-26351888949933979462010-02-10T01:52:09.695-06:002010-02-10T01:52:09.695-06:00You know Nathaniel I was brought up LDS, and I don...You know Nathaniel I was brought up LDS, and I don’t recall a single story of a prophet disregarding a commandment for some greater benefit. Could you give us a few examples?XR4-IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11833497059713999081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-6865524766850494352010-02-10T00:11:18.576-06:002010-02-10T00:11:18.576-06:00Mike - Are you Leah's brother? You use a lot m...Mike - Are you Leah's brother? You use a lot more emotion than I ever knew Leah to.<br />You ask illogical questions like 'which parts of the doctrine are okay to toss out? How much can you throw away before you're no longer considered LDS? Might I be considered LDS by your standards?'<br />I never talked about tossing out or throwing away doctrine. I never said that you were LDS either. The fact that you consider this religion or any religion all or nothing says a lot about why you're not LDS (or even religious for that matter). My vocabulary is obviously not black and white, but mostly gray. Within the LDS religion there are many instances of prophets and good men disobeying the commandments because they knew it was better for them to do so. What you've said says way more about your beliefs than it does about the LDS beliefs.<br />You say that you don't feel better because of atheism? Your last paragraph proves otherwise. <br />I don't want to come off as cold to you, I just think these points should be discussed logically instead of emotionally.Nathaniel Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13535208584815272932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840695227917041221.post-61416789152035358032010-02-09T22:46:56.302-06:002010-02-09T22:46:56.302-06:00So, Nathaniel, if the TRUE RELIGION isn't an a...So, Nathaniel, if the TRUE RELIGION isn't an all or nothing deal, how do you know which parts of the doctrine are okay to toss out? How much can you throw away before you're no longer considered LDS? Might I be considered LDS by your standards? I don't believe in God, and I think the core beliefs of Mormonism are basically rubbish, but I share a few (non-exclusive) beliefs with Mormonism, like love one another (and by extension don't kill or rape people), "all things in moderation," exercise prudence and save for the future, etc. Does that make me Mormon? You face the same all-or-nothing problem with the divine-mouthpiece/fallible-human prophet dichotomy. How do you know when it's God talking and when it's the man talking? If you have to use your own common sense anyway to sort out the answers about which stuff to follow and which to ignore, why not just scrap it all and come up with your own logically-derived set of morals? And what does "accepting your divine potential" really mean, anyway? *shrugs*<br /><br />For me, atheism isn't "merely a way for [me] to feel better about [myself]," it's just the logical conclusion I've come to after considering everything I've learned so far. Honestly, I don't think anyone becomes an atheist just to feel better about themselves; it's a ridiculous notion. As Leah vividly pointed out, even if you know you'd be happier not believing, you can't just force yourself to stop believing without logical reasons for doing so.<br /><br />As far as feeling better goes… overall I'm definitely happier as an atheist, but frankly (and I'm paraphrasing Julia Sweeney here), there are some things that are sadder from an atheist perspective than they would be from a theist perspective. People die forever. No one is guiding us, or protecting us, or compassionately listening to us. People who commit atrocities and are never held accountable in this life do not face accountability in the afterlife; there is no such thing as karma. A caring and benevolent God is a lovely idea. But just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it so. That's not a respectable or logically-valid reason to believe something is true.<br /><br />Bottom line for me is this: there probably is no God. And even if there were, if he's really as perfect, and loving, and just, and merciful as everyone says he is, he wouldn't cast me out of his presence for using my God-given intellect and trying genuinely to follow my own logically-derived ideas of right and wrong, nor would he hand down <i>eternal</i> punishment to anyone for any reason (because eternal punishment is a seriously fucked-up concept), nor would he hold me accountable for not believing in him based on the (complete lack of) evidence he's given me (and why exactly is it so important that we believe in him anyway?). And if I'm mistaken, and he turns out to be a horrible bastard, then good riddance; I'm better off without him.Mike Elliotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13182360977278780548noreply@blogger.com