I've gotten some feedback that my blog is coming across as derogatory. Let me make it clear: I have no intention of coming across otherwise, though perhaps I should clarify derogatory of beliefs, not of people who believe them. I believe global warming is caused by humans. I believe we need a public option in our health insurance system. I believe homosexuals should have the right to marry. Why would I take offense at someone who says I'm wrong about these things? You see pundits vehemently debating and criticizing both sides of all these issues, but religion is off limits?
I have no intention of playing nice with religion. To be blunt, I think it is poison and it needs to be eradicated if we're ever going to progress. I took the respectful, non-confrontational route for quite a while. I said in my first post, when I first left, I had no intention of trying to dissuade anyone else from their beliefs because even though I thought those beliefs were wrong, I didn't see what the harm was in letting them believe it. In fact, I could see that religion was a source of comfort and hope for some people. But I now believe that we are paying too high of a price for that solace.
The moderate religion of love many people enjoy today was only made possible because people have dared to question the establishment. Most contemporary religion has been culled down to only the nice parts, but it is still based on a lie. I don't think basing your life on a lie, no matter how lovely of a lie, is a healthy way to live, though you have that right if you so choose.
I've also heard, "Well, I'm more of a person of faith than a religious person. My faith makes me happy. How is that harming me?" I do get the difference between faith and religion, and you're probably right that your faith isn't harming you personally. I still say you're paying a high price for that solace, because it is contributing to a culture where we say it's okay to have unfounded, illogical beliefs. Where do we draw the line? If we have to respect your nice beliefs, do we also have to respect beliefs that homosexuality is evil, or that Black people are the cursed tribes of Ham, or that infidels must die?
To all the lost sheep, you are not alone, and you don't need a shepherd. There are butchers out there masquerading in shepherd's clothing. Better to stay lost than to return to a fold that will destroy you. Come into the light of reason. There's a better way.
Don't forget that extremist religiosity (of any faith) is born out of moderate religiosity. If you remove one you remove the other, though I do recognize that politics would probably be the replacement.
ReplyDeleteYour blog and others like it give me hope. It's time people were outspoken about reason instead of madness. Keep it up. And thank you.
ReplyDeleteGenericMeatUnit.
GenericMeatUnit, thanks so much for reading and for your supportive comment!
ReplyDeleteLeah, in my attempt to better understand atheism, I would like to hear some elaboration on your part about a couple of your statements in this post. I'd like to hear a little more about:
ReplyDelete"I think it is poison and it needs to be eradicated if we're ever going to progress." I realize that there are dangerous religions out there, both physically and mentally, but what is it about religion as a whole that is poisonous? More specifically, for my sake, what is poisonous about Christianity?Christopher Hitchens stated in his book "It is certainly true that emancipation from religion does not always produce the best mammals either." A blogger on a different post of yours said that he/she did not see anything spectacular about atheists. So, if eradicating religion won't necessarily produce better mammals and if atheism is as prone to having idiots and dunces as religion, then in what ways do you think we will progress?
"The moderate religion of love many people enjoy today was only made possible because people have dared to question the establishment. Most contemporary religion has been culled down to only the nice parts, but it is still based on a lie." What do yo mean religion has been culled down? Can you offer some verifiable evidence that it is based on a lie? What is the lie religion is based on?
You also stated that there is no sin (in a different post). What then would you call murder, or spousal abuse, or what if your spouse cheats on you, or child molestation to name a few? Do you consider these things wrong? If so, from what absolute do you presume to make these judgments? If our innate sense of morality is just something that has evolved with us can we consider these things absolutes? Does natural selection produce absolutes?
I know you asked for Leah, but I'll throw in my two cents anyway. Maybe she'll follow up with something later.
ReplyDeleteThe main thing that is poisonous about religion is its promotion of faith as a virtue, which promotes faith-based thinking, and all the crap that comes along with it. When a religious person encounters something that contradicts their beliefs, they will twist their mind and blot out facts and logic in order to maintain their beliefs, at any cost. "Science adjusts its views based on what's observed; faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved." (-Tim Minchin) There is no reasoning with a religious person when it comes to things that involve their faith-based beliefs. There is no way to talk someone out of believing "God wants me to kill all infidels." There is no way to get someone to give a shit about climate change, or overpopulation, or the fact that humans are ravaging the environment if their pastor tells them that those things are only myths concocted by snooty scientists who think they know better than God. There is no way to diplomatically resolve a conflict between two people who believe ownership of a specific piece of land is their God-given right. The only way to resolve a conflict based on religious beliefs is through violence.
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As for the specific harms of Christianity, I'm going to paraphrase Bob Smith (http://normalbobsmith.com/hatemail319.html) because it reflects some of my feelings pretty well.
ReplyDelete"Reason #1 that Christianity is harmful- It teaches faith over logic. Christianity promotes believing in things using faith over the use of one's own common sense, and sometimes even over science itself. This is harmful because it discourages the search for real answers, and instead allows one to "fill in the gaps" with answers based solely on faith.
2- Christianity tells of Christ's glorious return to earth and all of His followers being swept up into heaven after Armageddon. Correct? A majority of Christians think that this event will take place within their own lifetime. This belief does not encourage any sort of preparations for our long term future, but could instead encourage any kooky Christian in power to do their best to usher in an Armageddon by whatever means necessary.
3- It puts many things as priority over other human beings. Number one thing more important than human beings is God, of course. This includes more important than your family, friends, and anyone else you may think is really important. Jesus is also more important than every other human being. The Word of God and Jesus are more important than human beings. If God commands it you do it, NO MATTER WHAT! [Think Abraham and Isaac.] This is very VERY dangerous.
4- Christianity paints a picture that this life is nothing compared to the one you get after you die. As an atheist I cringe thinking of how many people put that other "eternal life" as the one worth waiting for– The life that makes this one look like a freakin' speck of dust. [Not to mention all the sacrifice and anxiety people go through for the sake of this imaginary afterlife that can turn their life into an emotional roller coaster. It's a disgusting and tragic swindling of human lives, like people who give their life savings to a crooked salesman only to get screwed in the end.]
5- Christianity damns certain people to hell, forever. These are human beings who suffer forever and ever, sometimes for just believing something other than Christian beliefs. How is it that a person can enjoy any sort of paradise in heaven if, for instance, their parent or child dies a non believer? How is a person supposed to compute the information of a paradise with loved ones in hell? Perhaps family members don't matter once you're in heaven? Perhaps your fellow human beings don't affect your emotions once you're in heaven. Maybe once you're in heaven your mind is wiped of the people you cared about on earth, and those human lives lost in hell are trivial, and don't deserve one tear once you're in heaven. Perhaps this means life is trivial? What else could it mean if I can have a paradise while others burn forever?" [end quote]
Oh, and there's also the little detail of brainwashing children into being terrified of horrible consequences like burning for eternity in a lake of boiling tar and blood if they don't obey arbitrary illogical rules from an imaginary omnicient being in the sky. Such a thing can and does destroy entire lifetimes.
ReplyDeleteRead Leah's first blog post again for more examples of the harms of religion.
Now... what sort of progress might we make without religion? In addition to getting rid of all the harms I mentioned above, how about dignity and equal rights for homosexuals? How about stem cell research? How about a world where people take care of our planet with a view on long-term survival instead of perpetually expecting the armageddon just around the corner? What if we no longer had people who justified committing crimes with the idea that they could just ask God for forgiveness later? (Fun fact: atheists account for a disproportionately tiny fraction of the prison population—less than 1%.) How about if U.S. presidential candidates stood or fell on the strength of their merits alone, with nothing to do with how much they kiss God's ass (or more specifically, God's followers' asses)? (Another fun fact: it's impossible for anyone to become president of the United States unless they profess a strong belief in and dependence upon an imaginary invisible being who lives in the sky and responds to telepathic requests, and judges everything you think and do (kind of like Santa Claus); if we weren't referring to God, people would consider that kind of behavior psychosis.) What about a world where people resolve their conflicts through diplomacy instead of war? What about a world where these "God-made" conflicts don't exist in the first place? Peace in the middle east, anyone? No more 9/11's, anyone?
Next point.
ReplyDelete"What do yo mean religion has been culled down?" People no longer offer blood sacrifices to Yahweh. Christians don't have witch hunts, or kill scientists for asserting truths that contradict church doctrine, or go on massive bloody "convert or kill" crusades, or own slaves, or treat women like property (usually), or have temples (except Mormons), or have prophets (except Mormons), etc., etc. For the most part, it's pretty much been cut down to the "nice parts," or at least those are the parts that every Christian cherry picks from the bible. "Love one another," "Turn the other cheek," "Do unto others..." etc. You know, all the stuff that falls in line with the modern day consensus on moral behavior and basic human decency.
The main lie that (most) religion is based on is the existence of an all-powerful god who created the universe, who judges your actions and rewards/punishes you in an eternal existence that follows this life, according to your ability to obey his commandments. "Enslave yourself to our dogma in this life, and you'll have freedom and happiness in the life to come," is about the gist of it. No, I can't prove conclusively that Christianity is based on a lie, any more than you can prove that, say, Islam is based on a lie, or that the Flying Spaghetti Monster didn't create the universe as the legends say he did, or that there aren't trillions of invisible, incorporeal pink unicorns roaming the earth (try to prove that there aren't a dozen of them in the room with you right now). The evidence is all around you in the observed laws of physical reality that make it impossible for the supernatural claims in the bible to be true. All it takes is the most basic level of intellectual honesty and some common sense. The supernatural claims of the bible are such obvious fiction to anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of the physical world, and who isn't trapped in Christian dogma and the need to believe it's all true.
Last point.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Leah was saying that there is no such thing as morality, or right and wrong. She said there is no such thing as sin. Sin is defined as "an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law." Some sins can logically be considered immoral acts (such as the ones you mentioned above), while other sins can't logically be considered immoral (such as masturbation, homosexuality, blaspheming the holy spirit, etc.), but all sins have some extra God-inflicted consequences attached to them artificially. Since there is no God, there is no divine law, and therefore, no sin. Only simple right and wrong, with no contrived consequences blowing things out of proportion.
So what is the absolute basis for logically determining what is moral or immoral? That's simple enough: that which promotes the survival and wellbeing and quality of life of yourself, your social network, and the species as a whole can be considered "right"; that which promotes the opposite—death, pain, poor quality of life—can be considered "wrong."
The work of natural selection in forming our intuitions about morality is obvious: those who consider "death, pain, and poor quality of life" to be "right"—to be values worth pursuing—don't live long enough to pass on their genes. This either because they kill themselves, or because society ejects them, or refuses to mate with them, or kills them or because of their anti-social behavior. Human beings are social creatures. They rely on good social relations and the support of other human beings for their survival. Anti-social behaviors such as murder, rape, thieft, etc. are maladaptive and will lead the person who participates in such actions to social exclusion and/or death. The people who have survived this long are descended from people who naturally understand the value of being kind, and playing nice with other people, who know how to empathize with and care for other people. It's a well-adapted survival mechanism. This is where our intuitive sense of morality comes from.
And humans aren't the only species that naturally display kindness and empathy. It's been observed in many other primates, dogs, cats, dolphins, and even mice, to name a few. Many wild animals work in teams, looking out for each other, pursuing common goals for the benefit of all. Dogs sometimes risk their lives to rescue their pups, or even their human masters. Chimpanzee mothers care tenderly for their young, or occasionally even adopt babies that aren't their own. I'm not overlooking all the barbarism that also exists in the animal kingdom, I'm just saying that even though all animals are totally ignorant of God and his divine teachings of morality, many animals still seem to be getting at least the basics right.
You don't need a belief in God or religion to have basic empathy and kindness toward other human beings (frankly I find the personal implications of that concept to be incredibly insulting). An opposite correlation has in fact been found. A study has shown that "secular societies have lower rates of violence and teenage pregnancy than societies where many people profess belief in God." (http://americanhumanist.org/hnn/archives/index.php?id=219&article=7) This doesn't prove necessarily that belief in God decreases one's morality, but it does prove that societies don't fall into moral chaos without a belief in God to keep them in line.
Um, I can't think of much I want to add to this. Thanks, Mike!
ReplyDeleteMike already touched on this, but in my view, the main reason religion is harmful is that it promotes believing without evidence and this can go unchecked until followers will believe anything and be willing to do anything.
More examples of religion being culled down, during the Dark Ages, life was all about the Church and nothing else. The Church basically owned people. Noncompliance was not tolerated, and was sometimes punished by social shunning, sometimes through physical harm.
Another example is music. The Church used to be incredibly strict about what kind of music was permissible and what wasn't. Intervals of thirds and sixths were considered unholy. Musical instruments weren't allowed because they couldn't convey a verbal message and were vulnerable to being used a conduit for evil spirits, so they thought. Maybe no one suffered any major harm from this, but what a lot of beauty and pleasure people missed out on because of the superstitions of the powers that be.
Thank you guys for your comments. Here are some responses to the objections to Christianity that you listed above:
ReplyDeleteReason #1 – Is faith based thinking limited only to religion? As I’ve stated in other posts I do not believe that atheists are free from having faith, though different terms may be used to substitute for the term faith. A few examples of where I think atheists place faith because there is no scientific answer for how/why it happened: the origin of the universe, the statistically improbable fine tuning of the universe to promote life, the origin of life, the hurdling of evolutionary gaps, to name a few. Now any attempt at describing these events have often used the term luck. Wouldn’t you agree that labeling something you don’t understand with luck is essentially the same as labeling something as faith? If not, what is the difference between the two? Not to be constantly picking on Dawkins but he has no problem attributing things he doesn’t have an answer to, or gaps in scientific knowledge, to luck. Instead of ‘god of the gaps’ it’s ‘gap bridged by luck’. But at the same time he will criticize a religious person for having faith. Is it logical to attribute hugely improbable events to luck? Also, are there not Christian scientists? Can you honestly tell me that you do not put your faith in anything? Do you ever fly? Do you not put incredible amounts of faith and trust in the pilots to get you safely to your destination? Do you research the pilot’s flight training history, or check to see if they have ever been involved in a prior accident of some sort before so you can make a logical decision as to whether it is safe for you before boarding the plane? Or do you trust that they know what they are doing without any evidence? What about if you are in a relationship with someone? Do you not place a certain amount of faith in that person to be loyal to you?
Reason #2 – History has shown that there have been and currently are those who preach that Jesus’ second coming will happen in this lifetime. I will tell you that they are wrong in their assessments. I am not saying that it won’t happen in our lifetime but I am saying that we don’t know when it will happen. To preach that you know it will happen in our lifetime is a distortion of truth. There are multiple references in the Bible to Jesus’ return. Jesus, himself, talks about it at length in Matthew 24. There are certain signs that he talks about, like famine, war, and earthquakes, that are indications that the time is near. However, at the end of this discussion he says “However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen.” It will be like a thief in the night. As for long term preparations, we were commanded by God to govern over the land. Which, any responsible governor will be responsible with what they have been charged to govern rather than squander its resources.
Reason #3 - I believe that it is true that the most important thing for each and every individual is to be in a right relationship with God. In Mark Chapter 4 Jesus asks this question, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?” However, I also believe that someone who is in a right relationship with God will also strive to be in a right relationship with their family and friends as commanded by God. God created family (and the two shall become one Gen 2:24). Jesus was a human being. He is God in the flesh. Ultimately our relationship with Jesus Christ is the most important relationship of all. And if we follow his commandments we will then strive to be in harmony with our family and friends as well. Paul talks a lot about honoring your father and mother and for husbands to love their wives and for wives to respect their husbands. Love your neighbor as yourself.
ReplyDeleteReason #4 – It is true that the mind cannot fathom the live to come but I do not believe that that automatically minimalizes this life. I don’t quite understand the anxiety and emotional roller coaster part. The cool thing about Christianity is that if you place your trust in Jesus Christ there is no anxiety about the life to come. I am going to take a risk by suggesting that maybe this isn’t necessarily the truth in Mormonism. I know there is a lot of pressure put on mormons to perform and maintain a certain level of worthiness (what the heck is temple worthiness anyway) but I do not think that is Biblical. It is not about trying to live up to a certain standard (as imposed by the mormon doctrine?) to try to earn your way to the third heaven. Christianity is about grace which is a freely accepted gift to whomever so chooses. Consider these passages: “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Romans 10:9 and “God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.” Ephesians 2:8-9. There is no anxiety or emotional roller coaster in knowing that if you trust in Jesus as your Lord and accept his gift of salvation as a free gift that you will be saved. Ensuing is a life filled with joy and lived and enjoyed to the fullest.
Reason #5 – I do not believe that Christianity damns people to hell. I think that God allows each person to choose to either be with Him or separated from Him. Consider this excerpt from the book ‘The Reason for God; Belief in an Age of Skepticism’: “Hell is simply one’s freely chosen identity apart from God on a trajectory into infinity. We see this process “writ small” in addictions to drugs, alcohol, gambling, and pornography. First, there is distinction, because as time goes on you need more and more of this addictive substance to get an equal kick, which leads to less and less satisfaction. Second, there is the isolation, as increasingly you blame others and circumstances in order to justify your behavior. “No one understands! Everyone is against me!” is murmured in greater and greater self-pity and self-absorption. When we build our lives on anything but God, that thing – though a good thing – becomes an enslaving addiction, something we have to have to be happy. Personal disintegration happens on a broader scale. In eternity, this disintegration goes on forever. There is increasing isolation, denial, delusion, and self-absorption. When you lose all humanity you are out of touch with reality. No one ever asks to leave hell. The very idea of heaven seems to them a sham. C.S. Lewis says in his book ‘The Great Divorce’: People in hell are miserable. We see raging like unchecked flames their pride, their paranoia, their self-pity, their certainty that everyone else is wrong, that everyone else is an idiot! All their humanity is gone, and thus so is their sanity. They are utterly, finally locked in a prison of their own self-centeredness, and their pride progressively expands into a bigger and bigger mushroom cloud. They continue to go to pieces forever, blaming everyone but themselves. Hell is that, writ large.” God is the only judge who allows US to decide our fate. What about those who never hear to Gospel? Well, (speaking purely from my own speculations) I think that God is a divine judge and that maybe he will judge people according to what information they have. In Romans is says that the law of God is written in our hearts, which I believe to be the moral code, and that maybe God will judge people according to what they do with the information they have. I think there are clues idea of graduated judgment because the Bible says things like “even wicked Sodom will be better off than such a town on judgment day” which I think may suggest each person will be judged according to their own individual circumstances.
ReplyDelete“People no longer offer blood sacrifices to Yahweh” – Is that because it has been culled down or because there is no more temple (the Jewish temple was destroyed in 70 AD) in which to offer those sacrifices? No temple, no sacrifices. Christians do not believe in blood sacrifices, not because of being culled, but because they are no longer necessary since Jesus sacrificed himself. He fulfilled the law. It is true that many crimes and heinous things have been done in the name of Christ and in each case they were committed by sinful human beings. Let me answer with this quote, “When people have done injustice in the name of Christ they are not being true to the spirit of the one who himself died as a victim of injustice and who called for the forgiveness of his enemies.” (The Reason for God). I know that there are a lot of man made rules imposed on believers such as limits on music or dancing or what have you, but for a lot of these rules there is simply no Biblical basis for them. For example: when it comes to music and dancing, David was a huge fan of both. His dancing even embarrassed his wife but he didn’t care because he was dancing for God.
Next point.
ReplyDelete"What do yo mean religion has been culled down?" People no longer offer blood sacrifices to Yahweh. Christians don't have witch hunts, or kill scientists for asserting truths that contradict church doctrine, or go on massive bloody "convert or kill" crusades, or own slaves, or treat women like property (usually), or have temples (except Mormons), or have prophets (except Mormons), etc., etc. For the most part, it's pretty much been cut down to the "nice parts," or at least those are the parts that every Christian cherry picks from the bible. "Love one another," "Turn the other cheek," "Do unto others..." etc. You know, all the stuff that falls in line with the modern day consensus on moral behavior and basic human decency.
The main lie that (most) religion is based on is the existence of an all-powerful god who created the universe, who judges your actions and rewards/punishes you in an eternal existence that follows this life, according to your ability to obey his commandments. "Enslave yourself to our dogma in this life, and you'll have freedom and happiness in the life to come," is about the gist of it. No, I can't prove conclusively that Christianity is based on a lie, any more than you can prove that, say, Islam is based on a lie, or that the Flying Spaghetti Monster didn't create the universe as the legends say he did, or that there aren't trillions of invisible, incorporeal pink unicorns roaming the earth (try to prove that there aren't a dozen of them in the room with you right now). The evidence is all around you in the observed laws of physical reality that make it impossible for the supernatural claims in the bible to be true. All it takes is the most basic level of intellectual honesty and some common sense. The supernatural claims of the bible are such obvious fiction to anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of the physical world, and who isn't trapped in Christian dogma and the need to believe it's all true.
As for the specific harms of Christianity, I'm going to paraphrase Bob Smith (http://normalbobsmith.com/hatemail319.html) because it reflects some of my feelings pretty well.
ReplyDelete"Reason #1 that Christianity is harmful- It teaches faith over logic. Christianity promotes believing in things using faith over the use of one's own common sense, and sometimes even over science itself. This is harmful because it discourages the search for real answers, and instead allows one to "fill in the gaps" with answers based solely on faith.
2- Christianity tells of Christ's glorious return to earth and all of His followers being swept up into heaven after Armageddon. Correct? A majority of Christians think that this event will take place within their own lifetime. This belief does not encourage any sort of preparations for our long term future, but could instead encourage any kooky Christian in power to do their best to usher in an Armageddon by whatever means necessary.
3- It puts many things as priority over other human beings. Number one thing more important than human beings is God, of course. This includes more important than your family, friends, and anyone else you may think is really important. Jesus is also more important than every other human being. The Word of God and Jesus are more important than human beings. If God commands it you do it, NO MATTER WHAT! [Think Abraham and Isaac.] This is very VERY dangerous.
4- Christianity paints a picture that this life is nothing compared to the one you get after you die. As an atheist I cringe thinking of how many people put that other "eternal life" as the one worth waiting for– The life that makes this one look like a freakin' speck of dust. [Not to mention all the sacrifice and anxiety people go through for the sake of this imaginary afterlife that can turn their life into an emotional roller coaster. It's a disgusting and tragic swindling of human lives, like people who give their life savings to a crooked salesman only to get screwed in the end.]
5- Christianity damns certain people to hell, forever. These are human beings who suffer forever and ever, sometimes for just believing something other than Christian beliefs. How is it that a person can enjoy any sort of paradise in heaven if, for instance, their parent or child dies a non believer? How is a person supposed to compute the information of a paradise with loved ones in hell? Perhaps family members don't matter once you're in heaven? Perhaps your fellow human beings don't affect your emotions once you're in heaven. Maybe once you're in heaven your mind is wiped of the people you cared about on earth, and those human lives lost in hell are trivial, and don't deserve one tear once you're in heaven. Perhaps this means life is trivial? What else could it mean if I can have a paradise while others burn forever?" [end quote]
Leah, in my attempt to better understand atheism, I would like to hear some elaboration on your part about a couple of your statements in this post. I'd like to hear a little more about:
ReplyDelete"I think it is poison and it needs to be eradicated if we're ever going to progress." I realize that there are dangerous religions out there, both physically and mentally, but what is it about religion as a whole that is poisonous? More specifically, for my sake, what is poisonous about Christianity?Christopher Hitchens stated in his book "It is certainly true that emancipation from religion does not always produce the best mammals either." A blogger on a different post of yours said that he/she did not see anything spectacular about atheists. So, if eradicating religion won't necessarily produce better mammals and if atheism is as prone to having idiots and dunces as religion, then in what ways do you think we will progress?
"The moderate religion of love many people enjoy today was only made possible because people have dared to question the establishment. Most contemporary religion has been culled down to only the nice parts, but it is still based on a lie." What do yo mean religion has been culled down? Can you offer some verifiable evidence that it is based on a lie? What is the lie religion is based on?
You also stated that there is no sin (in a different post). What then would you call murder, or spousal abuse, or what if your spouse cheats on you, or child molestation to name a few? Do you consider these things wrong? If so, from what absolute do you presume to make these judgments? If our innate sense of morality is just something that has evolved with us can we consider these things absolutes? Does natural selection produce absolutes?
If you don't believe in God you're gong to hell. It IS Christianity damning people to hell. It takes away people's freedom to choose in what to believe.
ReplyDelete